Some time ago we had a discussion about when and where lap dances started. I just read a novel ("Snow White and Rose Red" by Ed McBain) that was written in 1983 and takes place in a fictional town near Tampa. In it the cops are looking for a stripper and they go to a club and interview the manager and some of the dancers. There's a very detailed description of the club and what goes on there, including lap dancing. One of his earlier novels written in 1981 also alludes to lap dancing in the same town. Interesting.
I was in both Mons and 2001 sometime during the 1970s and I don't recall any laps at either place. As I recall Mons had table dances that I believe included some minimal contact, but I don't remember any private dances at all at 2001. I do remember a girl at 2001 trying to talk me into taking her upstairs to a champagne room but I have no idea what happened there because I didn't go. But I had the impression that it would have been a hands-on experience.
I initiated a similar discussion a few months ago. After that I read an article in SF Weekly that said that lap dancing originated in New York in the 1970s and then migrated to San Francisco around 1980. Don't know if that is true, but that's what it said. I was in SF in the early 90s and you could get a lap dance for $5.
I remember some clubs outside Myrtle Beach, SC, that offered $5 table dances with some incidental contact by the dancer with the customer & they had $10 couch dances with a little more contact by the dancer. It was strictly one way contact or else a big boucer would throw you out. This was around 1973-74. Around the middle of 1975 a buddy of mine & myself made our first trip to Tampa. My buddy had only been told about 2001 so we never made it to Mons Venus until the next trip back to Tampa. Before our first visit to Mons we made a visit to Nashville, TN and the dances there were as hot as 2001 but nowhere as hot as what we found at Mons!
Chandler, that makes sense. I guess today's strip clubs are an outgrowth of both the brothels and burlesque theaters of old. They've basically merged. And I don't know which has had the greater influence.
And just to finish the story about the "87th Pricinct" novels, the thing that was unique about them was that the books have no single main character and no single major plot, they're each about a bunch of officers of the pricinct, going their separate ways, and a featured character in one book may be a minor character in the next. While that may seem pretty commonplace today - lots of TV series are like that - it was a unique concept in 1956 when "Cophater" first appeared. Incidently, I've only read about 1/3 of the series, I'm trying to read them in order and some of them are hard to find. Plus I prefer his Matthew Hope series anyway. For me a lot of the fun in reading older books is the reminder of how life used to be. For example I just love it when people are running around looking for pay phones.
FONDL: I think the answer to your later question is that both evolved at the same time. Lap dances were developed as a convenient, packaged form of softcore sex that former hardcore providers could perform out in the open in clubs as an "artistic performance", thus sneaking by the new ordinances and the courts. At the same time, table dances at topless clubs kept outdoing each other in pushing the limits of allowable contact.
FONDL: The modeling I'm talking about was different. You chose a girl and spent a fixed amount of time in a room with her that was set up for photography. I guess they had different backdrops and props you could select and studio lights. They might have even supplied a camera and film in case you "forgot" yours. I've heard of porn stars who got their start when their boyfriend took them to one of these places. Traci Lords, Jenna Jamieson, Dorothy Stratton(?). I imagine they disappeared once the sex biz became more explicit and the need to present it under another guise was gone.
Chandler, you're right about "87th Pricinct" being the first series, in fact there was a very successful TV series base on the books but I forget which one it was. In fact I believe that there was a law suit about it between McBain and the studio.
The only modeling I remember is that there used to be clubs where the waitresses and barmaids wore very skimpy nighties, and some restaurants used to have lingerie modeling days. I remember one in Florida that I probably went to in the 1970's. I was also in both Mons Venus and 2001 Odyssey at about that time but I don't remember if there was lap dancing or not - as I recall there was private dancing in Mons but not 2001, but I think it was just table dancing.
This discussion raises an interesting question: did lap dancing evolve from "clean" dancers gradually doing more or from hookers doing less? The Ed McBain novel (which voices the opinion that all strippers are hookers) suggests that it evolved from crackdowns on brothels, so that by doing laps the girls were actually doing less than they used to. One of the cops in the book specifically mentions Houston as being the town where the crackdowns occurred. I'd never heard that point of view before but it makes sense.
BTW, the quoted article in that link says Flashdancers was the first NYC club with table dancing. Can that be? I assumed Flashdancers took it's name from the Jennifer Beals movie, which came out it 1983. That seems late for introducing table dancing, although maybe there was no demand for it in NYC with all those $1 laps.
FONDL: As they say, to name something is to own it. That's where I think the Melody (literally, the Melody Burlesque, which was reborn in the 80s/90s as the Harmony Theatre) stakes its claim. The term "lap dancing", from what I gather, was definitely coined from there.
Your mention of that Ed McBain novel reminds me of an earlier Elmore Leonard story that prominently featured a "nude modeling studio". Do you know what story, and did anybody ever go to one of those places? Supposedly, girls modeled for customers on the pretext that they were taking amateur photgraphs. But actually, they were more like an early version of jack shacks. I wonder whatever happened to them?
BTW, FONDL, I think Ed McBain's 87th Precinct is credited as the first police procedural *series*, although individual novels by others came earlier.
Thanks, Chandler, I do remember you posting some of that before. I've always assumed that lap dancing started in Tampa but I don't really have any factual basis for that assumption. And I have no idea when but it appears that it's been around much longer than I realized. Incidently, the two books I referred to earlier didn't call it lap dancing, they just described it but from the description it cleary was. So maybe the activitity existed for awhile before the name was adopted.
The timeline is not clear from them. Sometime in the 70s, nude stage dancers began circulating through the theatre audience for tips, which led to mini-laps and eventually formalized lap dancing. However, I don't think a single time and place can can lay claim to the "Birth of Lap Dancing". It appears that separate paths produced essentially the same result nearly simultaneously in different cities. In San Francisco, the Mitchell Brothers' live sex shows added audience participation (what a concept!), then tamed that down to something like lap dancing. Meanwhile, in topless clubs in places like Florida and Texas, table dances became more and more interactive. I don't believe any of these three lines of development led to the other two.
What I find interesting is how practically every city has some local quirk that points back to whatever historical path it's clubs come from. For instance, in San Francisco, where most clubs had theatre seating, lap dancers really emphasize grinding while facing away from the customer, even in clubs that have regular chairs or couches.
FONDL, when we discussed this earlier, I found an old Usenet thread that went into great detail with first hand accounts of how the "Mardi Gras" feature at the old Melody Theatre in NYC evolved over the late 60s and early 70s into lap dancing. I can't remember if I posted a link or summarized it here. I''ll dig it up again.
My 1st awareness of lapdances occured in mid 80's, reference "Texas Style Couch Dance", mainly Houston. That 1983 novel that you mention may have used Mons Venus in Tampa as material, as the ED guide lists that club as opening in 1981.
Minnow, I don't think so. The very detailed description of the club includes porn movies behind the dancer on stage, HJs under the table, and BJs in the parking lot. I don't believe that Mons Venus ever had those features but I recall some other clubs that did. Plus his earlier book that mentions laps was published in 1980 or 81 so it must have been researched and written before that. Incidently, Ed McBain is known for his "87th Pricinct" police procedurals (I believe he is generally credited with inventing the genre) but the books I'm talking about are from a different series. His books are always very well researched and full of lots of very descriptive details. The strip club scene lasts about 20 pages and is about halfway through the book, if anyone is interested. It's pretty funny and brings back memories.
I know lap dancing was offered in Key West, Florida during the 70's. I seem to recall the first time was likely about '72 or '73. Been there, done that. As I recall, the cost was $5 a dance, and dancer tips were quarters for the juke box.
15 comments
Latest
And just to finish the story about the "87th Pricinct" novels, the thing that was unique about them was that the books have no single main character and no single major plot, they're each about a bunch of officers of the pricinct, going their separate ways, and a featured character in one book may be a minor character in the next. While that may seem pretty commonplace today - lots of TV series are like that - it was a unique concept in 1956 when "Cophater" first appeared. Incidently, I've only read about 1/3 of the series, I'm trying to read them in order and some of them are hard to find. Plus I prefer his Matthew Hope series anyway. For me a lot of the fun in reading older books is the reminder of how life used to be. For example I just love it when people are running around looking for pay phones.
The only modeling I remember is that there used to be clubs where the waitresses and barmaids wore very skimpy nighties, and some restaurants used to have lingerie modeling days. I remember one in Florida that I probably went to in the 1970's. I was also in both Mons Venus and 2001 Odyssey at about that time but I don't remember if there was lap dancing or not - as I recall there was private dancing in Mons but not 2001, but I think it was just table dancing.
This discussion raises an interesting question: did lap dancing evolve from "clean" dancers gradually doing more or from hookers doing less? The Ed McBain novel (which voices the opinion that all strippers are hookers) suggests that it evolved from crackdowns on brothels, so that by doing laps the girls were actually doing less than they used to. One of the cops in the book specifically mentions Houston as being the town where the crackdowns occurred. I'd never heard that point of view before but it makes sense.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sex.s…
BTW, the quoted article in that link says Flashdancers was the first NYC club with table dancing. Can that be? I assumed Flashdancers took it's name from the Jennifer Beals movie, which came out it 1983. That seems late for introducing table dancing, although maybe there was no demand for it in NYC with all those $1 laps.
Your mention of that Ed McBain novel reminds me of an earlier Elmore Leonard story that prominently featured a "nude modeling studio". Do you know what story, and did anybody ever go to one of those places? Supposedly, girls modeled for customers on the pretext that they were taking amateur photgraphs. But actually, they were more like an early version of jack shacks. I wonder whatever happened to them?
BTW, FONDL, I think Ed McBain's 87th Precinct is credited as the first police procedural *series*, although individual novels by others came earlier.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sex.s…
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sex.s…
The timeline is not clear from them. Sometime in the 70s, nude stage dancers began circulating through the theatre audience for tips, which led to mini-laps and eventually formalized lap dancing. However, I don't think a single time and place can can lay claim to the "Birth of Lap Dancing". It appears that separate paths produced essentially the same result nearly simultaneously in different cities. In San Francisco, the Mitchell Brothers' live sex shows added audience participation (what a concept!), then tamed that down to something like lap dancing. Meanwhile, in topless clubs in places like Florida and Texas, table dances became more and more interactive. I don't believe any of these three lines of development led to the other two.
What I find interesting is how practically every city has some local quirk that points back to whatever historical path it's clubs come from. For instance, in San Francisco, where most clubs had theatre seating, lap dancers really emphasize grinding while facing away from the customer, even in clubs that have regular chairs or couches.