discussion comment
12 years ago
And as the jelly oozes down the side of the tree, I take my hammer and nail and move on.
Rick, you're absolutely unbelievable. But a great tap dancer.
discussion comment
12 years ago
"No, if my daughter did it then it would be because she felt she had no other choice, which would mean that I failed as a father to give her better options"
Better options? Isn't this the guy who just got done explaining how "...a 20 year old dancer with skills can put on her heels and make good money today", and in fact more than a banker with much less effort? And isn't this the same guy who proclaimed (my paraphrase) "planning for the future doesn't pay the bills today"? By your own words, stripping is a great option, no?
There's more to it, and you know it. Again, it's about ethics, and what you know, down deep, is right and wrong. And THAT is why you'd let your daughter be a stripper only over your dead body.
discussion comment
12 years ago
"And now you are speaking for society as a whole?"
Is what I say wrong? Ask people. Ask your daughters. Ask their friends. Ask your wife. Ask every stripper you meet. Ask them how others feel about strippers. Ask them if they tell their family and friends about their stripping. Ask them how proud the are. Then come back and let us know if you still hold your opinion.
discussion comment
12 years ago
Rick, it's an ethical question. You're trying to make it a situational question so that you don't have to answer the ethical question.
You keep boasting about your brilliance with the subtle and dynamic nuance of strip clubs, but you can't even address a simple ethical question.
There's a reason you would be furious if she chose to be a stripper who let guys have sex with her for money. But you refuse to face and accept the basic reason you'd be upset. It's because that type of behavior is, to you, degrading, humiliating, and overall a really bad thing. You'll argue all day whether you'd call it "whore" or "slut" or whatever, but that's not the point. The point is that it's unacceptably bad behavior which disgusts you. And society as a whole agrees with that emotion, and feels exactly the same way as you do. They call it being a 'slut' or a 'whore'.
But you've been painted into the corner of hypocrisy, and you'll never give up.
discussion comment
12 years ago
"Here is a little thought experiment. Transport yourself to the Netherlands and resume the argument"
Are you saying that if Rick moved to the Netherlands he'd let his daughter work in the red light district?
discussion comment
12 years ago
BTW, for those following this discussion, what Rick is describing can be categorized as 'situational ethics', in which people bend their ethical beliefs to suit themselves, depending on the situation.
In this case he is capable of bending his basic belief that letting a guy pay you for sex is the act of a whore, and totally unacceptable, which he clearly feels applies to his own daughters. In this case he can bend that belief around 180 degrees to make it somehow appear honorable. Truly a stunning bit of acrobatics.
discussion comment
12 years ago
"I am simply not going to demonize a girl girl who does what she needs to in order to care for her own family just because I would never condone it for my own daughter"
So if your daughter does it she's a whore, and doing something that is totally unacceptable and disgusting. But if someone else does it she's just providing for her family. Okay. Got it.
So letting a guy pay you for sex can either be absolutely disgusting and unacceptable, or totally honorable, depending on the situation. Got it.
discussion comment
12 years ago
BTW, Rick, I never said, at any point, whether I personally view strippers as whores or sluts. My point, and my entire discussion, was from the perspective of society as a whole, and you in particular. So you're free to imply I have a personal bias, but that is nothing more than your attempt to deflect the issue and continue your tap dance.
discussion comment
12 years ago
Okay Rick, as usual, trying to get a straight answer out if you is like trying to nail jelly to a tree. Freakin' impossible.
Apparently you think it's merely 'opportunistic' for a girl to let strangers pay her for sex, as long as she needs the money to pay the bills and feed her family. However, that same logic doesn't apply to your daughters, in which case they'd do it over your dead body because you view it as being a whore. So you admit that letting guys pay you for sex is being a whore when it comes to your daughters, but it doesn't apply to other girls. Even though their parents and family members and friends probably feel the same way as you do.
And apparently you don't see any hypocrisy in that, right?
discussion comment
12 years ago
"What is stupid about all of these rebuttals is the assumption that all dancers have guys paying to squirt on her face"
Rick gave an example of a stripper he's paying to have sex with, and he called her merely 'opportunistic'. I disagreed, and provided a rational reasoning.
You don't like it, so you take it out of context and make a useless comment. And how much does it change my point if your daughter is still a stripper doing air dances? Any more 'opportunistic', or do you still get freaked out?
discussion comment
12 years ago
Okay, so if you and your family was suddenly destitute, for whatever reason, and your daughter decided she needed to become a stripper and let the customers pay her for sex it would then be okay and merely 'opportunistic'?
Dude, stop dancing around the issue. It's not about money, it's about whether it's slutty and whorish. You keep trying to justify your position by bringing money into the picture.
If a girl is totally broke, and you are her father, and she tells you she's working as a stripper and having sex with strangers, is it just 'opportunistic'? ANSWER THE FREAKIN' QUESTION !!!!!
discussion comment
12 years ago
Rick, it's clear you've put on your tophat and tails and tap dancing shoes, and doing a tap dance around the issue.
It's not about YOUR daughters, it's an ANALOGY where I used you as an example so you'd understand. The POINT is that you continue to believe you're nuanced and brilliant in thinking that it's merely 'opportunistic' for a girl to let a guy pay her to squirt on her face, but every father on earth would NEVER let his daughter do that because he'd feel it was disgusting. No father would call it merely opportunistic, but for some reason you can.
How can that be?
discussion comment
12 years ago
Rick, you're dodging the primary issue.
Is it okay, and merely 'opportunistic' for some other guy's little girl to do it, but not for someone YOU care about? Everyone is somebody's daughter. And most/all of the fathers feel exactly the same way as you do.
How do you possibly justify thinking it's merely 'opportunistic', when you know damn well it's much more than that to men and fathers and mothers everywhere?
discussion comment
12 years ago
"I have far more respect for a woman who does whatever it takes to provide the best possible life for her and her children (which most dancers have)"
Okay, fair enough. So if your daughter came to you one day and said "Um, Daddy, I've never told you, but I've been a stripper for a couple of years now. And I've been having sex both inside and outside of the club with these guys who pay me. And they do stuff to me, like shoot all over my face and stuff. Is that okay, Daddy?"
Now, answer this: would you consider that to be immoral, or just "opportunistic"?
discussion comment
12 years ago
"But do I consider her to be immoral and indiscriminate? Not at all. Opportunistic is a much more accurate description in my view"
With all due respect to the many seasoned club hounds here with many nuanced, brilliant, and ultimately correct insights...
What a bunch of old white guys think about whether a stripper is a whore or any other descriptive term is totally irrelevant. What matters is what society in general thinks. And what does society think?
I think any stripper will tell you that most women (not all, but most) consider anyone who would do what a stripper does as a slut and/or a whore. Now, do they use the Webster's definition to decide if it technically lines up? No, they decide, out of emotion, that any girl who "dresses like THAT" and dances for men, etc., etc., is a slutty whore. Which is why the average girl would sooner die than let their daughters/family members/friends know that they are strippers. That's what really matters, not what a bunch of white guys who love strippers think.
What about most men? Well, if your daughter told you that she was a stripper, would you:
A. Freak out and get totally pissed, or,
B. Go insane
Now, ask yourself why. No matter how you slice it, in general, society considers strippers as something along the lines of slutty and whorish. No matter what term you use, it's not a good thing, and not something you're proud of. Of course there are exceptions, and I'm sure that the seasoned pros here will list those exceptions, but in I'm talking in generalities.
discussion comment
12 years ago
VH, seriously, between you and me, I have a question...
And this isn't intended to be an attack, it's a real question:
Dude, do you have some sort of mental problems? I'm not trying to be mean, but geez dude, you seem to be unable to focus on stuff or comprehend real simple concepts, and you just post this unrelated nonsense that makes zero sense. I mean, you actually think that strip club locator apps have anything to do with what we're talking about? And you get into this big unrelated discussion about who pays for development of an app, which has nothing to do with anything.
Dude, don't you see how completely irrational all of your points are? I suggest, very simply, how you can make money off your brilliant idea, and you go off into some strange discussion of SC locator apps and who pays for development.
Honestly, I'm starting to feel bad for you, and maybe we shouldn't be so tough on you. Maybe you have some issues that aren't your fault. If that's the case, I apologize.
discussion comment
12 years ago
And one last statement for Mr. VH to show we're on his side...
VH, dude, this is a golden opportunity. If you really think your idea has merit, you're right, ignore the sheep. You can make money with this, dude. Maybe not a million $$, but you can make some money. Here's my suggestion:
1. Go to one of the many companies who develops iPhone apps. Give them a spec for what your app should do. Let them develop it for you.
2. When they're done, get a short term business loan. Let's say they charge $10k. No big deal, pay them and you'll recover that money real quick.
3. Now, there are about 2,000 active clubs in the US. If you can sell your app to each club, and charge them a measly $10 each for your app, you've paid off your loan and made $10,000. Free money, dude.
4. Contact the suits at Deja Vu, probably the biggest chain in the US. Give them a "deal", charging them only $50 per club for your app. If it's good, they'll jump at the chance. And as a result you have the 'industry standard' application. Selling it to the other clubs will be eazy peazy.
Good luck, dude. We're counting on you.
discussion comment
12 years ago
You're right. Sorry.
I think it's time to go to a strip club.
discussion comment
12 years ago
"So a strip club app is so enormously expensive that no software company would be foolish enough to write one?"
I never said that.
For any business to invest in anything it has to provide a return. Which is why I suggested you figure out the cost of the app (and even provided a link to help you) and also suggested you figure out how much revenue that investment will bring the club. Until you do that, you have nothing.
If it costs $20,000 to develop the app, plus a monthly maintenance fee, the club must recover that money by bringing in more customers. What you fail to answer are the most important points:
Will your app recover the money it takes to develop and maintain? Also, will enough strippers agree to be registered that it's worth having it for customers?
discussion comment
12 years ago
"It usually takes hundreds, maybe thousands of outside the box ideas before one takes off"
And it takes more than just an idea, it takes someone with the fortitude to admit what works and what doesn't work, and be flexible enough to admit when he's chasing a crappy idea. And once you have a good idea, you need to have the balls to follow up and figure out how to implement it.
discussion comment
12 years ago
BTW, VH, I did some real quick searching for you, and found one of many websites for companies that specialize in iPhone apps. It even gives costs for development, etc.
Check it out, and then when you have some real info let us know if you want to stick with your brilliant idea:
http://www.bluecloudsolutions.com/blog/cost-develop-app/
Or is this the point where you come back with "...yeah, whatever..." and drop it?
discussion comment
12 years ago
"Software companies write apps, sniffy --- not the chimps working at strip clubs"
Dude IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO YOU GET TO WRITE THE APP. The point is it costs money to write it !!!!! You keep dancing around the important stuff and focusing on irrelevant stuff.
discussion comment
12 years ago
Okay, VH, put numbers to it.
How much does it cost to write your app? How much does it cost to maintain? How much does it cost to maintain the hardware?
Once you have those numbers, tell us how much revenue the app will bring the club. Until you can make a business case, you have nothing.
discussion comment
12 years ago
"So girls are deathly afraid people know they work at strip clubs --- why dont they all wear ski masks during their shift, dippy? That would certainly protect this anonymity you think they want so badly."
What you apparently can't comprehend is that it's a MATTER OF DEGREE, and a matter of RISK. Different girls have different limits about what they will do. Some would NEVER, EVER work in a strip club. Others would work in a club, and take the risk that someone they know will find come in and see them dancing. But those same girls are far less likely to take the much greater risk of being easily identified by anyone on the planet who merely has to click on a website to see that she's a stripper.
Do you understand that? Worrying about someone making the effort to visit a club is far less risky than worrying about someone merely clicking on a website. Isn't that obvious? Anyone, of any age or gender, anywhere on the planet, can click on a website. But it's far less likely that your daughter's 12 year old friend, or your grandmother, will visit a club and find you out.
discussion comment
12 years ago
"Millions of iPhone apps available and they all require an IT specialist to install, eh? Funny!"
What they require is someone to write them. Which costs money. And someone to maintain them as OS's change and get revised. Which costs money. And someone in the club who has the time and knowledge to fix the computer when it has problems, and so on.
And how many clubs can justify the ongoing expense? And more importantly, WHY would they justify it? Is it drawing customer revenue, or is it just a nice convenience that doesn't really result in any new revenue?
Again, put your money where your mouth is. Prove it. If it's a great idea, approach the club owner next time you're in your favorite club, and see what he says.