63, 63 plus 3

Let me add as of 1964 IWO was still considered as being an emergency only place to land. I saw two aborted missions delivering the mail, etc because it was after night fall. Kadena. Okinawa was a much better place to go.

"The battle of Okinawa proved to be the bloodiest battle of the Pacific War. Thirty-four allied ships and craft of all types had been sunk, mostly by kamikazes, and 368 ships and craft damaged. The fleet had lost 763 aircraft. Total American casualties in the operation numbered over 12,000 killed [including nearly 5,000 Navy dead and almost 8,000 Marine and Army dead] and 36,000 wounded. Navy casualties were tremendous, with a ratio of one killed for one wounded as compared to a one to five ratio for the Marine Corps." globalsecurity.org

Yep, heaven forbid had "Okinawa not been secured, crew would have been forced to ditch or bail out, close(r) to enemy territory." I for one would have preferred MANY fewer "pieces of the puzzle in place" and that holds true for other conflicts modern and ancient. Saves lives and limbs!

Yes, I realize what a tremendous hardship it would be for the crew to get closer, but heck if they could save the lives of 12,000 American soldiers, then I'd hope you could find a few good brave heroic men willing to accept a riskier mission. Also, another 36,000 were wounded. :( Government always seem to have such contempt for human life and limb, but the people just love it. :(

let me also add that in the two years that I was stationed in Japan 64 and 65 I never met a person that hated the U.S. for dropping the bombs and I did work with the."Japanese Self Defense Force" The women were lousy in bed.

"The women were lousy in bed."

God, it gets worse. :( Yes, they're supposed to be so good to the invaders of their homeland. I'm sure if the Japanese soliders liberated the U.S., then American women would be fantastic in bed with Japanese soldiers. Yep, the Japanese soldiers would be writing back to their homeland that American men can't fight worth a lick and have small dicks, but American women sure know how to suck dicks and pump dicks for every drop. The American women would surely make you proud shadowcat---you might even stop hating 'em for a few seconds.

What the fuck do you know? Go back to your Books. I have been there.

The US only had 2 bombs at the time and if the Japanese knew that, I doubt they would have surrendered. I heard that some of the Japanese commanders did not want to surrender even with 2 cities getting nuked. They didn't surrender after one city was nuked. Based on what I know about WWII, if I could go back in time and persuade either the German or Japanese commanders, I could have provided information to let the Axis win the war. The outcome of the war was not certain in the beginning. I believe many Americans take it for granted that we will be able to easily defeat any enemies. I believe that could be a grave mistake.

"What the fuck do you know? Go back to your Books. I have been there."

I know that education (books) is the key to keep from making the terrible mistakes that your generation did.

How come oldsters like shadowcat think that their Archie Bunker style of dealing with things is always absolutely right?

Bocks Car and the Enola Gay were both made at the Martin Bomber Plant at Offutt AFB in Bellevue, NE, about 10 miles from my home. In my old delivery job, I got to deliver there as part of my route, so I guess that is my one connection to history.

"I could have provided information to let the Axis win the war."

Why the hell would you want to do that??

I'm pretty sure that RI is the last state to celebrate V-J Day, or, as I used to call it (and still do) "we hate the Japanese Day". Why someone would want to celebrate the victory over Japan still and not the victory over Germany I suspect has a lot more to do with racism that we might like to think. I for one appreciate what my grandfather & all his war buddies did for us so long ago, but the V-J Day thing still bugs me for some reason...

CG: "Based on what I know about WWII, if I could go back in time and persuade either the German or Japanese commanders, I could have provided information to let the Axis win the war. "

I'm skeptical, but I'll bite. What information would you provide them?

For Germany the best I can see you doing is providing them information about the exact date and location of D-Day. I agree that would would have kept the US, Britain, and Canada from pulling it off. However, the war was already lost at that point. The Russians could have done it all by themselves. (And, even if there was no D-Day, the US+Britain would be able to do mighty destruction to German air power, and could have destroyed many German cities through fire-bombing.)

As for Russia, that one was closer. You might have helped them capture Moscow in Oct or Nov 1941 but I don't think that would have been enough to win the war. (Maybe Moscow + Leningrad, but it's not clear they had the manpower to do that one).

In reality, once Hitler learned how massive the Russian forces really were he was on record as saying he would have never done the invasion in the first place. With no Barbarossa, he could have eliminated Britain but that doesn't win him the war.

As for Japan? How the hell could Japan have pulled off any occupation of America? Way too small a nation. Wasn't even their goal. They hoped to cripple the American fleet and thought the Americans would sue for an immediate and generous peace treaty with them. Oooops!

Actually Dougster there are a couple of pieces of info that could have altered the conflicts significantly. With the war in Europe, if, following Dunkirk, the Nazis ahd realized how weak the defense were in GB and had invaded instead of depending on the ability of air power to bring England to it's knees it would have in effect kept the US from playing as significant a role. We would not have had a staging or jumping off point and the conduct of a war from accross the Atlantic would have been difficult at best.

As to the Pacific, there are a number of pieces of intel that could have made a difference. Location of the US carriers at the time of the attack. Location and relative weakness of the fleet at Midway and Coral Sea. Relative weakness of the forces in Hawaii would have made capture and occupation possible again denying us reasonable access as a jumping off point for that theatre.

Unfortunately war, any war, is filled with "if only I had knowns" that could change the outcome or at least the course of the conflict. Unfortunately of late even good intel would not have affected our actions since some assholes only accept that which fits the decisions they already made. You can figure out who I'm speaking of, I'm sure.

clubman2: How could they have invaded after Dunkirk? There was the chanel in the way. Sounds like a Manstein myth ala "Lost Victories". Even if they took out Britain, as I said, that would not win them the war.

Say the US lost their entire Pacific fleet. No biggie, they just build another.

Oh boy. "The was a chanel inthe way" That's a real problem. How did we invade France (Normandy), or North Afica or Italy. I guess we drove. And that would have won the war in Europe. At that point we were not in the conflict nor was Russia.

Pacific - you can't win a war with just a fleet. You need to be able to put boots on the ground and from here supplying an invasion would have been virtually impossible.

The allies were able to invade Normandy because they had almost complete naval and air dominance. Germany, after Dunkirk had neither.

But I do agree, partially, if the definition of winning is weakened to just mean defeating Britain, it could have been done by the Germans with time. Doesn't help with the US or Russia though.

Suggest you go read history and other documentation. Check your timelines and what they already controled and then THINK.

Ok, thanks for admitting you were wrong.

Amazing!!! Dougster(???) There are millions of people out there with average to above average intelligence that bring logical, well reasoned and, at least to some degree, fact based arguments with whom to debate whether I agree with their position or not. You on the other hand, in the few posts you have made in this thread and elsewhere, have shown yourself as a sub-par moron bringing none of those attributes. Suggest that you find a kiddie board where you may be able to convince someone that you have something of value to bring to the table. Or in other words that you may be able to understand FUCK OFF

(ignore)

63, 63 plus 3. Interesting title. Took me a little while to realize that 63 is years, 3 is days. That made it even more interesting.

Dougster, I would not such harsh language as Clubman2 did, but for whatever it is worth, I do agree with the general tenor of his remarks. Consider just one huge blunder you made: stating that Japan would not have been able to successfully occcupy America. (False premise) Read some some history, Dougster. Japan had NEVER had any interest in occupying America, or even in "DEFEATING" America. The objective of Pearl Harbor attack was to take out the American Pacific Fleet, and then consolidating their gains in the eastern Pacific region without pesky interference from America. The militarists took a huge gamble and ultimately lost. Hard to predict WHAT would have happened in the Pacific if the Japanese Battle Plan for Midway had succeeded. There is a book "Miracle at Midway" which convinced me that America was VERY LUCKY to achieve our tremendous victory at Midway. If the Japanese had sunk the American carriers instead of vice versa, it is possible that America would not have been able to prevent Japan from consolidating its Pacific conquests. There are so many imponderables and unknowns....

arbreeguy: Oh, I've read history books. How you avoid a "blunder" yourself, and read what I actually wrote:

"As for Japan? How the hell could Japan have pulled off any occupation of America? Way too small a nation.

==================

Wasn't even their goal. They hoped to cripple the American fleet and thought the Americans would sue for an immediate and generous peace treaty with them.

==================

Oooops!"

Now, I say that even if the Japanese had completely sunk the entire US pacific fleet, America would never have given them a peace treaty. They would have had to occupy the US itself to keep the US from rebuilding a navy and eventually flattening them. That's what it would have taken. And was just plain impossible.

Roosevelt was just dying to get into WWII. Heck, some even argue that he provoked the war with Japan, or knew about Pearl Harbor but did not do all he could to prevent it. (I don't completely buy this argument but it is odd which Japanese codes were broken, and, how there was a little gap around Pearl Harbor time when this was not the case. But I'll just go with the official story of coincidence.)

The Japanese had a real bad read on America. No way they could have ever have won that war.

So unless CG is suggesting something super fanciful, like he goes back and tells them their codes have been cracked, which ones would be secure, how to build an atomic bomb, etc.

But I'm sure that's not what he meant though. So let's have him comment.

Not sure why clubman freaked out so much. Sore loser?

"The Japanese had a real bad read on America. No way they could have ever have won that war."

Biological weapons of mass destruction? A sweet deal for Mexico after softening America up? Dirty bombs? Heck, there is even some propaganda that Britain has a chemical weapon where a teaspoon can wipe out a major city.

Of course, I remember the phoney blaoney stories about Dioxin where a couple tablespoons could wipe out a city. That silliness wore down to zilch after a few patriots were caught with 17 pounds of Dioxin. Of course, the Feds were laughing their asses off for the most part. It wouldn't have surprised me if the Dioxin was so relatively harmless that one could get dusted with it without dying.

Hey, arbeeguy. I remember watching a show on the history channel about the Battle of Midway. I know the US was really pushing the envelope with the information they got from the cracked Japanese codes. Does the book you recommend get into that?

Wow...hissy fits over PAST wars?? How about if c-guy told the Germans that their Enigma code had been broken (same with the Japanese), then he could tell Japan the location & weakness of the remnants of the U.S. Pacific Fleet. Then, he could be an even bigger traitor and give either side a book on how to make a nuclear weapon...or the plans for a viable long-range bomber to hit the USA...

I don't think a lot people realize exactly how tenuous the Allied position in 1942 was...they got a LOT of good breaks for their side...Midway, Guadalcanal, Taranto, Oran Algeria, El Alamein, Stalingrad (which was a big, huge waste of German resources that one could have warned them off of)...all of which could have gone either way for either side.

It's all moot now though...

The posts on traitorous acts remind me of the left's horrific new tack that treason is the "new patriotism."

"The posts on traitorous acts remind me of the left's horrific new tack that treason is the 'new patriotism.'"

Keep grapsing at straws there "how"...it's tough when your side's going down the crapper real fast eh??

Normally I like just coming here to check up on reviews or post one of my own after a trip somewhere, but this discussion has me tweaked so I'm throwing in my 2 cents.

It is hilarious to say "if I could go back...." for anything. I'd then say to that poster "if I could go back to before you were born, I'd make it so your parents wouldn't meet...then you couldn't go back and change the war...but then someone else can go back and fix me before I do that..." and so on. War has existed since the beginning of time and will continue to exist. Most of the time it progresses the species one way or the other. Treaties are signed, alliances are made and (albiet years down the road) most involved parties end up progressing. We are in the first few generations who want to re-write history so that we lose or so that we never enter the conflict at all. If WWII never invloved the US or if we did indeed settle up with Japan and lay low, Europe would be a shambles (Hitler's vision would have imploded on itself within a few years)and the US would have been a much weaker country so many of the advances we have made might never have come to be (don't forget, for better or worse we are the most technologicly advanced country in the world and one of the few that have a true operational democracy). Who knows what kind of shambles the earth would be in now. Do you think Japan or Germany or Russia would have treated us well after winning a war (or if we surrendered before one got started)?

Let's say you do away with war throughout the centuries....No Egypt, no Roman Empire, no expansion into Europe and over the Atlantic, no discovery of America, no Revolutionary War, no USA. I'm not saying War is good, only that it has to be. And since there will always be some amount of war, you have to do the best thing you can do to end the war, which is to win it as soon as possible and that means losing men and women on both sides. Until there is something to either totally unite the planet (doomsday, alien invasion, asteroid...whatever) there will be war...period. Wanting to go back and change what happened is just stupid. If you could go back and change anything, go back with a gun and take out a few key religious leaders throughout the centuries, since religion is at the heart of most conflicts (including the current one in Iraq).

That's my 2 cents....and that's all it's worth, keep the change if you don't agree.

SMEGMA!!

Say what? CG didn't say or even imply that he wished the Axis would have won. You are just charging at some silly windmill.

Probably he was just proposing it as an hypothetical example in strategic thinking and/or thinks he has a take on this "what if" question that hasn't been considered before.

Don't know why this topic is on a site devoted to strip clubs but after reading some of the posts I can only come to the conclusion that the USA would be in deep shit if another World War II came along as many of the posters to the topic lead me to believe they are bunch of chicken shit bastards who have not thought for their country, their freedom or the freedom of others but their own selfish asses! I'm sure that somewhere in the bunch is someone who ducked the draft during the 60's which caused my ass to be sent to Viet Nam in their place. Fuck you & those that think like you. It sounds like some of the sick fucks actually wanted Hitler & Tojo to win WWII and most probably were pulling for Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein! Makes me sick!

"the USA would be in deep shit"

It already is in deep shit.

Hey, chill out Sheik.

Only in your imagination is anyone of this thread suggesting they wanted the Axis to win, let alone Bin Laden/Hussein.

Take a valium and chill!

Would a surrender by Britain have given Hitler the East coast of Canada as a base for invading the U.S.? Unthinkable?

SuperDude: Only possible if Britain also lost its navy and airforce. Even then the US had an Atlantic fleet so it's still very doubtful. If are you thinking some long term war where Germany builds up a navy (and other technology) after defeating Britain that is interesting, although the US would then also build its own technology so I still don't think it's a win.