discussion comment
17 years ago
On my route to/from my fav clubs (and ATF), there are two stretches where US 31 is slowed to a crawl. These two places are notorious for speeders being caught. Believe it or not, most of US 31 is 60 or 65 MPH, but these two spots are 35 MPH!!! Growing up in this area, I've heard many a tale of people getting pulled over there, so I am EXTREMELY careful, especially if I've had ANYthing to drink. One night, as I was coming home about 3:30am, I approached the first of the two spots and VERY carefully slowed to 35MPH on the dot, well before entering the area. Almost immediately when I passed the posted speed limit sign, I had red and blue flashing lights all over in my rear view mirror. TWO squad cars fell in behind me and forced me to the side of the road. I knew damn well, that there was NO way in hell that I was speeding. The cop came up to my window and asked if I knew why I was pulled over. As he did this, he actually stuck his head in my window (seems like a stupid thing to do these days...'specially if I was a bad dude). I honestly said no, and pointed out that I knew better than to speed in that area and explained how cautious I am. He claimed that I was doing 52mph, which is a flat-ass-bald-faced lie. He took my license and reg back to his car while he shined his spot light in my face. After 20 frickin' minutes, he came back and said that he'd let me off with a warning. As I drove away, I could only think that he was hoping that I had alcohol on my breath (probably why he stuck his head - to sniff).
discussion comment
17 years ago
Paris is younger than 21?! She sounds better all the time... definitely looked good on the club link!
Whghlost: All kidding aside, I'm sorry your experience turned so ugly. It's best that you move on and stay away from Paris and the club. Not that you have any choice, now. I think you can count your blessings that things didn't get any worse. You COULD have potentially been arrested, or at the very least had a RO filed on you. You also could have suffered personal injury at the hands of a bouncer or a jealous boyfriend. Yes, all of this because someone misunderstood your intentions... we all know that you didn't intentionally bring this down on you, but in the future, be VERY careful of your actions and be VERY cognizant of how your actions could be perceived by those around you!
discussion comment
17 years ago
JaBlake: I agree with you. I agree that there isn't too much of a difference between high contact and performing extras. That is why I am thinking that it's an easy step for a dancer to take when she has a bit of desperation. If she's in a financial crunch, or if she sees that it's only the dancers that do the extras who are making the money, then it SEEMS like a dancer's thought process would be "I'm already letting guys touch me, and I'm already rubbing him through his pants so how much worse is it for me to slide my hand inside his pants and give him a HJ?"
I'm also saying that I don't blame a dancer that takes that step. Where I WOULD have a problem is if my ATF has taken that step, or takes it at some point in the future. Maybe if I were to find out that she has taken that step, or takes that step in the future, maybe I, like you said, need to put myself in her shoes and be more understanding.
After all, when I shine the light back onto me, I know that >>I<< am guilty of giving in and receiving extras. Other than pleasure I'm not getting anything out of it... in fact I'm even PAYING for it in most cases. That, I guess, makes me a WHOLE lot worse than a dancer that is struggling to keep her kids fed and sheltered.
discussion comment
17 years ago
JaBlake: Definitely you have some good points there... In answer to your question, if I knew "she would spread her legs in order to avoid extreme financial hardship" would I lose interest. Yeah, I'd have to say I couldn't handle that. I have a hard enough time handling that she's dancing, but I view it (as does she) as a "temporary" thing until she can survive without it. Is that shallow of me? Perhaps, but it would also mean that she'd been lying to me, and would also indicate her true lack of interest in me - otherwise, why wouldn't she have permitted me further access to her. THAT, though, is kind of a catch-22. Had she allowed things to progress further than they have, I'd probably think less of her and lose respect and trust in her. To that, one could see where if she is playing "the game", she would know that to keep me in her clutches, she couldn't do those things with me.
See... another vicious circle of thought.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I'm not sure if it was a case of dancer desperation, or what, but one of my good friends (another long time clubber, and TUSCL contributer) related a story to me. One of his favs recently confided in him that she is stringing along a PL. To this point in time, I thought of her as being totally upfront and pretty much free of spewing stripper shit.
I'm still thrashing thoughts in my mind about how a dancer that seemed to have been nothing but honest with her customers, could also be capable of "playing the game" and leading a PL along. That, to be honest, shakes the very foundation of my beliefs that I've developed from experience and all of the reading and discussion on TUSCL. I know there are dancers that abuse their control over us patrons, and I know there are dancers that do NOT play those games, but now we are seeing evidence of dancers that do both - who knows WHAT criteria they use to decide which role they take for a particular customer.
We all know there needs to be some acting that goes into their usual "performance", but up until now, I thought that once I pegged a dancer as being a player, or as being a "what-you-see-is-what-you-get" dancer, it would be status quo. Not so, obviously.
That, as always, brings me back to thinking about my ATF, and another aspect that is bothering me. Also, it brings me back to the dancer desperation. I can see that a lot of the dancers need financial support, and it seems like dancers can be swayed to do things that they normally wouldn't do, because of their situations. It's not much of a stretch of the imagination that if things were especially tight financially, and some guy comes to the club with a lot of money - maybe even a guy that a dancer is attracted to - that the dancer might find herself doing things that she would never have dreamed that she would do, just out of desperation. If I were in their place, I certainly would be tempted...
From everthing that I've seen, heard and experienced with my ATF (including reports that I've received from fellow TUSCLers that have known her and experienced her dances), she is a clean dancer... no rule bending, no extras... She has been a tower of virtue in the hotel with me, other than heavy kissing - ('course that could indicate that I am a repulsive PL to her, that she is stringing along!). With her going through a divorce, and looking for a new house, combined with a loser ex- that is not giving her any money, either.... How much more desperate would she have to be to take that small step into providing extras... or outright sex OTC?
During one of our conversations, when I was pressing her on where I stood... she said that she would NEVER take advantage of me (meaning financially - not sexually, I assumed [grin]). She has been known to "cut off" customers that developed feelings for her which she could not reciprocate. She has told me that the few times that she has asked me for money, it was because she had no where else to turn. She continued saying that there are a lot of people (assuming guys) that she could ask for money, but they all want one thing from her, and she's not going to do that. It sounded good at the time.
Now, thinking back on what she said, I don't feel so good about it... to me, it sounds like she could be close to taking that step... >>I<< am not helping things out by making her feel guilty about taking money from me, even though I told her not to feel that way, that it was okay. The next time she gets into a bind, would she be less likely to call me for help and more likely to take that step and get money from some other guy for doing something with him?
Damn! I know better than to think I have found a nice normal relationship in a club. I THINK I've found something special, but there's so much baggage that comes with it, I don't know if it's worth it. It comes back to the question I've asked MANY times... How in the hell can we ever know - FOR SURE - where we stand with these girls. Even if somehow a relationship become a serious "thing", how can I be sure it's more than just security, money and stability to her, rather than love. And does it even matter?
It's a crazy, complicated, f^cked up world.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I will post an update to my plans early next week, hopefully to finalize. Of course as you would expect, my OTC schedule will come first - I'm HOPING that my time is completely filled with OTC time, but that, unfortunately is not likely.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Jablake: ED medication is NOT the answer. The "magic" pills don't give you an instant hard-on, they only enhance - or extend the experience. In other words, if you aren't turned-on mentally, no amount of Viagra or the like will make you hard.
So, yes, unless I'm totally desperate and horny beyond my normal range, she has to have the physical traits that turn me on. Admittedly, a woman that isn't quite what I find attractive can turn me on for a short period of time - depending on what she is doing, but after 15 min or so (the less attractive, the less time it takes), my mind kicks in and I start getting bored with it, unless I am able to finish quickly, I might not be able to or want to finish.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Just because it's a bikini club, it doesn't imply that there will be less contact. My experience is quite the opposite as the contact that I had at the bikini club in Philly was VERY high. From what others have posted, maybe it's not the norm, but I would gladly visit Cheerleaders if I'm ever near Philly again.
discussion comment
17 years ago
The "rub" of the matter (pun intended) is that ALL dancers have to, to some degree, practice their trade with an element of acting and deception. Like what was insinuated, it's the extent to which they take that act that presents problems to some guys.
Typically, no matter how much of a PL a guy may be, he can differentiate between what is real and what is fantasy. The PLs get into trouble and risk emptying their wallets and suffering from a broken heart when the act is presented so skillfully and convincingly that it "HAS" to be real in the mind of the guy.
Like I said, this is why the discussion along those lines is so pervasive in these message threads. The topic resurfaces over and over again, because someone is debating in his/her own mind whether or not a dancer can have feelings for a customer.
THIS thread is yet another example where a seemingly unrelated topic has once again found it's way to The Debate.
I believe everyone on this board considers themselves to be a savvy enough customer that is able to wade through the SS (or SSS) in order to determine whether it's fact or fantasy. Ninety-nine times out of 100, it is pure fantasy. Why do I feel that way? Well, in a rare instance, I believe there truly are mutual feelings being shared between the customer and the dancer and I base that on my current "relationship" with my ATF. To further muddy the waters, I am 99% sure of her feelings, but I cannot say that I'm 100% certain because of the possibility that she is not being truthful.
What a vicious circle it is.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Maybe I should apply for a government grant in order to study the potential positive effects that strip clubbing can have on guys. That would certainly improve MY health if my strip clubbing were to get subsidized by the government!
discussion comment
17 years ago
Jablake:
I think I understand what you are trying to say. I believe your theory is that the majority of the dancers are not going to fake it, or otherwise act like they are "into you" or let on that they are turned on because they don't want the customer to get the wrong idea that they have "feelings" for the customer.
If I am misinterpreting what you are saying, I apologize, if not, I am going to have to disagree with you.
The common theme running in most of the discussion threads on this board is quite the opposite. The consensus is that the majority of the dancers DO act like they are hot for the customer; they DO fake that it's the customer that is making them horny. The majority of the dancers intend to make the customers think that there is more between them than a dancer / customer transaction.
However, I DO know that there are exceptions to the rule and there are some honest dancers out there; dancers that do not practice deception and are honest and forthcoming with their customers.
It's the preponderance of dancers possessing and using their acting skills that gives the honest dancers a bad reputation. There are several dancers on this board that are not artists of deception, and I commend them for their honesty. My ATF falls into the category of trustworthy dancers. She actually has been known to refuse to spend time with guys that have developed feelings for her when she could not reciprocate.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Champagne Room
discussion comment
17 years ago
I recently heard some encouraging news about the status of the Dallas clubs, in particular Baby Dolls.
For some time now, reports were that the LE was cracking down on the clubs and what was going on in them. Specifically, it's been reported that mileage at BBD had been continually dropping over the last few months. There have been reports that the club has imposed new restrictions on touching and other activities. Others reported that the "forts" were no longer being built with the high backed chairs - a few reported that the high backed chairs were no longer on the floor. Definitely disturbing news for us BDD fans.
There may be an end in sight for all of this madness. According to some information that I've obtained, it's election season and all the politicians are out to make names for themselves "cleaning up Dallas", so there are undercover cops watching for violations of city ordinances. It will all go away again after elections. It happens every election year.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Chandler: Thanks for the tip on Elizabeth Kucinich. She's quite attractive. Looking at some of the images of the happy couple on the web, like this one -> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/382651593_b89f8e7051.jpg, I had to smile. With the height difference and age difference and with the way she looks with the long hair, good looks, etc., I was thinking that it looked like he was OTCing with a dancer.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I've only been to one bikini club, but I rank that club very high on my all-time list. The girls were beautiful - based on the girls' looks, that club is in my top 5 club list. The contact was also very good, and I wasn't too restricted, even with the top on. I was told that I could touch everywhere where there wasn't any covering, however I was allowed to spend a lot of time inside their tops, and one also granted me access to the inside of her g-string.
As always, it depends on the club and the dancers working, but I have VERY fond memories of my visit to a bikini club.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Lopaw: You can call me Fred, if you'll let ME kiss your ass! [wink]
I'm beginning to think that the Kucinich For President committee is sponsoring that quiz website.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Bones: I'm in my mid 40s, but 18 year olds feel MY dick!
discussion comment
17 years ago
ArbeeGuy:
My choice of words was the result of reading something in another post that was talking about "demands" on dancers or something like that, which was the inspiration for my post, and planted the seed for the choice of words. I would never DEMAND that a dancer do anything. I will ask / suggest in a nice way, like "can you do that thing where you....?"
discussion comment
17 years ago
Jablake: As the saying goes, there wouldn't be a need for a law against a grown man having sex with a young, nubile girl (I'm talking 16+, for clarification) if it was something that most men didn't want. The fact is, we DO want that!
discussion comment
17 years ago
There's certainly no way in hell that I'm going to encourage any body mutilation (tats, piercings or "3rd party after market add-ons"). Absolutely not contributing to that at all - at least knowingly. I'm sure over the years that some of the money that I've paid my girls has been spent on mutilations, but there's no way to control that.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I have several pet peeves, but really when I think about it, most are controlled BY me.
For instance, starting a dance mid-song... it rarely happens to me, but when it does, a simple "am I paying for this dance, if I am, let's wait until the next song starts" will solve that issue.
A dancer with an odor problem? Don't buy dances from her!
A dancer that sneaks up from behind and asks for a dance...I never acknowledge her... I pretend I didn't hear her.
I could go down the list, but that's enough, you get the point. What DOES bother me is something that happened during my last club visit last week. Maybe it bothered me more than it should have because it's been a while since I had experienced it, then I got it TWICE in one night... I'm talking about scoping out a girl that you are wanting to spend some quality time with, asking her to come back to your table, getting confirmation that she will come back to see you, only to watch her do everything BUT come to your table.
Here's what happened at BBF last week (sorry Chandler and Chitown, you've already read this);
My usual plan of attack is to sit through a stage rotation to find the girl that turns me on the most, but I didn't sit long before a fairly hot blonde came to the stage. She had shoulder length silky blonde hair, thin body, cute face... I'd give her a high 7 or low 8. I waited until she was topless, then headed to the stage to get a closer look. She was definitely cute, but looked a little older than I thought from a distance. She kind'a reminded me of Heidi from "The Hills", if you've seen that show. She gave me a sultry smile and walked towards me, telling me to scoot back from the tip rail. She then did a graceful headstand into my lap, with her crotch right at my chin. She slyly wrapped one leg behind my neck and pushed my face into her pussy (well, her g-string, anyhow [smile]). Then she dismounted and gave me a stevie. I slipped her a $1... I don't know why so little, usually I will tip $5-$20 and ask that they come to my table. I asked if she was having a good night and she told me that she was bored... I told her to come see me and I would take care of that, and she said she would.
When her set was over she exited the stage, then headed towards me. I looked down to adjust my pants and get into my "Mr Cool" pose, and after getting set I looked up with my most charming smile on my face, only to see her sitting about four tables off to my left. WTF?! I guess my measly tip was a mistake... shit! She DID say that she was coming over, though, so I waited patiently. After about 25 minutes, I was starting to get pissed. I continued checking out the talent on stage for option B when a very cute brunette hit the stage. She looked a lot like Penelope Cruz. She wasn't really dancing though... she kind'a just swayed to the music. I figure she must be new or something. When the top came off, off I went stage-side to tip, giving a "WTF" look to Miss Blondie as I walked past her and the doofus she was with, and set out to get a closer look at Miss Brunette. She definitely looked good, and she gave me a nice smile as I sat waiting patiently for her to come over so that I could tip her and chat her up a bit. She wasn't leaving the pole, she never went up to the guys at the rail. I've NEVER seen that behavior before, further making me think she's a newbie (nothing wrong with THAT! [wink]). FINALLY, when the song was over, she went to the few of us still gathered around, and ultimately came over to me. She just pulled out the g-string for my tip. No hug, nothing! I was semi-desperate at that point, so I told her I wanted a dance (I know, all indications are saying NOT to get a dance from her). She said that she'd come see me, and I again returned to my table.
This time, I wasn't taking any chances, so when she returned from the dressing room, I headed over towards her. She acted as though she were looking for someone (ME!), so I paralleled her path as she walked on the other side of the stage. We met at the end, and I gave her a suave "are you looking for me?", to which she smiled and coyly said "no". "Oh", I said as I slinked back to my table, past Miss Blondie, hoping that she didn't see me get shot down...
Twice in one night! I was ready to cut my losses after one of my worst trips to BBF, when Miss Blondie finally showed. I felt a little better about things, and after we retired to VIP, she was able to more than make up for my frustrations, so there WAS a happy ending to my story (err... you know what I mean).
discussion comment
17 years ago
I have never had any problems with my race - or the "race of the club". The closest I've had is just feeling uncomfortable being in the minority, and that was self-imposed... no one did anything to make me feel uncomfortable. The incident was in Atlanta - I THINK the club name was Follies or something like that. It was a Hispanic club, with a few Asians... then this white guy (me). I think I was the only one not speaking Spanish.
I have personally witnessed some racial discrimination, though. In particular, at HH in Kokomo. I've been told by more than one dancer that they are instructed not to dance for black guys. I've also seen black guys sitting there and getting about as much attention as a leper would get at an orgy.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I'm another customer that has never violated any of those 14 pet peeves. If I were a dancer, I'd more definitely gravitate towards guys like me.
As for wasting a dancers time... I don't feel - and have never thought - that I need to monitor how long a dancer spends with me without getting a dance. It's all under HER control if she sits with me, and if she does, how long she stays. If I am interested in getting a dancer from her, I will usually make that suggestion fairly early on in the chat process. If I'm not asking for a dance, I am most likely wondering in the back of my mind "when is she going to leave?!"
Have I ever misled a dancer into thinking that I was interested in her, when I really wasn't? I don't think so. But, if a dancer comes to my table and asks if she can sit with me for a while - unless she's completely unattractive, I'm most likely going to be polite and allow her to sit. If she asks if I would buy her a drink, again, I'd probably buy her a drink, even if I'm not terribly interested in her, too, for the same reasons. Is that wasting her time? In MY opinion, I don't think so.
If I was a dancer, I'm sure MY number one complaint would be the grabby customers trying to push my limits. A close second would be the guys that are trying to convince me to go out with them. The poor hygiene would also be WAY up there, too... maybe even number one because you can always tell a guy to stop touching you there... slap his hand/face or kick him where it counts. There's nothing you can do about his repulsiveness.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Chandler:
Hell, it's been so long, I might've added that wrinkle. But, getting back to the thread at hand...
You are pretty dead-set against the concept that there could be exceptions to the rule. I know from experience that it's almost unheard of that a dancer could possibly feel anything other than a hunger for money for the customer, but there ARE exceptions to the rule.
Two instances in my experiences come to mind in particular. Those being my prev-ATF (whom you know) and my ATF. I was "with" my prev-ATF for about two years, and though money exchanged hands, there was never any "you pay me x for y", or "if you want to see me, I need money" It was always quite the opposite. Eventually, there was an end to our "relationship", but again, it had nothing to do with money, or lack thereof... we just grew apart... like people in normal relationships do. Looking back on that relationship, she asked for money less than a handful of times, one of which was someone asking on her behalf, for bail money. After a lot of soul searching (some of it recent, in light of a current situation), I don't think I was taken advantage of at any time during our relationship. Admittedly, there were a few times near the end, where I started feeling a bit ATM-ish - I might've even posted something to that effect on this board, but upon reflection, I believe I felt that way more out of disappointment over the fact that we were drifting in different directions.
The other instance to which I referred is my current situation with my ATF. After spending the day with her last Thurs., and having several in-depth discussions about her, me and us, I am now totally convinced that money isn't a motivational factor for how she feels about me. She bared her soul to me, tears were shed, promises made. She is the real deal. We now have a mutual understanding about how we feel about each other, our respective situations and future potentials.
There ARE exceptions to the rule, though I agree that 99% of the dancers are in the majority.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I've had MANY dancers tell me that they remember me... several waitresses, too, for that matter. Usually, I just chalk it up to stripper shit, but occasionally, the dancer (or waitress) will relate enough memories that will prove that she does actually remember me.
I like to think that it isn't so much their fantastic memory, but at least part of it is that I am memorable.
Some incidents that stick out in my memory is a very cute waitress at HH that said she remembered me, and continued by asking how [name of prev-ATF] was doing, and if we were still "together"... Another more recent incident involved my ATF. A year ago, when we were in our first VIP session together, she kept telling me that I looked familiar, and then she said "I KNOW that I've danced for you before" (my mannerisms and line of chat, combined with my actions, were all remembered). Then, as the action ebbed a bit, as we talked further, I realized that she DID in fact dance for me several years prior... just once. At the time, she had much longer hair, which is why I didn't get the connection, but I did have a hazy memory of the encounter.