Comments by DocErotica

I have recently visited and reviewed three strip clubs in Maine: Platinum Plus, Diconzo's, and Steppin' Out. Platinum Plus is a major commercial venue but is very nearly all air. There's no contact for the private dances. You can sometimes negotiate touching with a particular dancer in the Champagne Room, but you're paying $400-600 total (room and companion) for that privilege and it will usually be limited touching. The "dorm mom" hangs around outside the cubicles and walks in occasionally, so nothing very intense is practical. On the other hand, the two other venues I mentioned above use dancers provided by an outfit called Bodies in Motion (BIM). BIM has a fairly liberal touching policy that includes breasts and nipples but not pussy and within those guidelines, touching is fully encouraged. Steppin' Out is the nicer of the two BIM venues. Lap dances are $2 minimum and floor dances $5-10 before the G-straps come off and $10-20 after. Some of the girls flash a lot of pussy for viewing, though not touching. Steppin' Out is one helluva lot more fun than Platinum Plus with a lot of contact at reasonable prices.

Thanks, guys, for the insights. I still have a lot to learn. My total number of strip club visits is just seven so far. The club located closest to me is a low mileage, high priced facility where you could pay $500 for the Champagne Room and end up with nothing but air dances, so I'm not convinced that just going with the flow will work around here. I got what I wanted one time by negotiating it in advance. The hottest girls here seem to have the most stringent limits, but my sample is small. Personally, I'm more interested in touching the dancer than vice versa, since one is a unique opportunity while the other can be accomplished in various ways. I was just curious as to whether my priorities were atypical.

Are all of you patrons only or are some of the folks who post here club owners, managers, bouncers, or other employees? The advice about going with the flow and giving up on control sounds like it comes more from a management perspective than a patron perspective. I have an aversion to paying a lot and getting nothing or very little in return. A few weeks ago, I tried to arrange some private time with my favorite dancer in the local club. She is a small, tight-framed blond with the build of an Olympic gymnast (female, that is), an adorable face, and a sparkling personality to boot. We were already on speaking terms, so I told her I was looking for a full touch arrangement – me touching her. In this particular club, it's pretty much out of the realm of possibility for a guy to get off anyway, unless you go OTC. The private rooms are anything but private. They are merely high-backed booths. Moreover, the equivalent of the dorm mother prowls about outside. The official rules of the club are no touching whatsoever, even in the highly expensive private rooms and the monitor comes in to remind you if she sees any significant contact. Such circumstances just wouldn't work for me no matter how valiant the gal's effort. The lovely dancer's response was that she'd have to get $1000 for that but for $500 I could touch her except for her pussy and asshole. I've forgotten what she said about breasts at the $500 level. I said I could pay her $500, but it would have to be full touch privileges. She then declared that it was against her principles and gave me the song and dance about saving something for the guy at home. I was tempted to remind her that it had not been against her "principles" at $1000, but only at $500, but I decided to forgo the point in the hopes that something might develop with her later. Keep in mind that in offering her $500, I would have been incurring a total cost over $700 because this club collects $220 minimum just for use of the booth for an hour. Some of you may now have doubts about my sanity, offering that much for touch privileges only, but this particular gal was so hot by my particular tastes that I know I would have regretted not offering that much for the rest of my life. A thousand, however, was out of my price range, especially since the room monitor might have prevented me from getting my money's worth. I especially appreciate the advice that one of you offered about avoiding signs of emotional involvement. I think that my tendency is to want emotional involvement and to show that desire. In an ideal world, I'd like to have emotional involvement with the dancer to the point of warmth and perhaps, given time, friendship. I'm not looking to fall in love with the girl, however. I can see now that any such overtures of emotional attachment, even at the stage of friendship, could be problematic for the gal. One club that I go to offers only lap dances and floor dances, so the most consecutive time you can purchase with one of the dancers is two songs, which is precious little time to make any kind of personal connection. Then she moves on immediately to other patrons. I'm particularly fond of one of the dancers and was thinking about asking her if she'd like to go out to an excellent restaurant on one of her nights off. I'd not only pay for her dinner and drinks, but her time as well, if the price was reasonable, and all I'd ask for was conversation. I'd love to get a better idea of what she's truly like as a person. Then, later, when we were back at the club, I'd enjoy touching her all the more. Would a restaurant offer of that type be crazy? What do you think?

FONDL, no, I haven't yet tried any clubs in Canada. I'm close enough to Quebec to make that a possibility but not Montreal. I'll do some research to see what might be available in Quebec.

You guys have been very helpful and I want you to know I appreciate your input. I'm paying attention to and mulling over the various pearls of wisdom you've provided, collectively. Visiting strip clubs is a new hobby for me. I've been at it for only a month. I have pretty decent interpersonal skills, but they are better adapted to some environments and circumstances than others. I've had the experience of being well-liked and even popular at times and not well liked at other times. As Popeye would say, "I yam what I yam." Whether my personal style will prove effective within the strip club culture remains to be seen. So far, I've found my strip club experiences both exhilarating and frustrating. One always wants more. I have two different home states and have yet to explore the world of strip clubs in one of the two. Judging from the listings and reviews at this website, I anticipate a wide variety of options there. It's not especially important whether one dancer or even one club's entire corps of dancers decides I'm a pathetic loser, provided I'm able ultimately to find at least one pleasant club where I fit in nicely and can get the kind of interactions I desire. I like to take a few interpersonal risks now and then, hoping for the best, rather than just playing it safe. I don't really have in mind establishing a dating relationship with the dancer that I mentioned in the last post. I was thinking more in terms of a one-time, lets-get-to-know-one-another occasion that would serve to add another level of enjoyment to the pay-for-touching relationship that we now have. Like another poster stated, my ultimate desire in relating with any stripper or dancer who appeals to me is the highest degree of genuine intimacy that she will allow. I don't count bases but I do care about how much real contact is established, physical and emotional.

This post is to clarify my views in relation to negotiating contact in advance. I guess I'd list the five things I most want when I go to a strip club (from most likely to occur to most likely to end up as wishful thinking) as (1) friendly and warm interactions with the dancers; (2) lots of lovely tits to look at, highlighted by erotic dancing; (3) touching tits and nipples; (4) intimate pussy views; and (5) fingering the gal's pussy until she cums. For me personally, getting an HJ or a BJ is not a priority, though I would not turn either down if it was offered and the environment was conducive. FS is not something that I would accept, even if offered, because I'm not going to jeopardize my health or that of my regular partner. Some strip clubs pretty much limit activities to numbers 1 & 2 on my list. I might go to such a club, but I would not expect to spend a lot of money there. One of the clubs I go to offers private dancers for $20. They take place in a rather public area where there are usually two to four dancer/patron pairs operating simultaneously. There is no touching whatsoever except when the dancer brushes up against the patron. Any deviation from those rules would be easily noticed by the other girls and patrons, and possibly by a bouncer. Under such circumstances and for the modest price of $20, I'm happy to take whatever the dancer offers and let it be so. That same club offers a Champagne Room experience, with typically costs $400-$600. The official rules still prohibit touching, but most of the girls offer a little and a few offer a lot. Even if the girl is willing, the extent of touching is constrained by the nearby presence of a supervisor, who paces the hall immediately outside the cubicles and interrupts if touching becomes too obvious. Realistically, the most that could be accomplished under such circumstances is dick-stroking through the pants, some breast contact, or some pussy fingering. It is relatively easy for the dancer to position herself on her hands and knees across the patron's lap with her pussy away from the viewpoint of the monitor. The monitor can then not easily distinguish mere looking from discrete touching of the pussy. When I previously mentioned negotiating contact in advance, I was talking expressly about the Champagne Room situation. I, for one, have no interest in paying $400+ for air dancing but am willing to pay that kind of money for intimate touching. If a girl approaches me with an invitation to the Champagne Room, what are my options? One option is to simply decline on the assumption that she's going to abide by the rules and offer only air or non-intimate touching. Why would I pay $400 for such activities when I could use that same $400 to purchase 20 private dances downstairs if I were so inclined? A second option is to accept her invitation without any further discussion and then end up feeling ripped off when nothing extra is provided. The third option is to discuss in advance with the lady what she will and will not allow in the way of touching. I don't recommend negotiating specifics for lap dances or $20 private dances, but I do recommend doing so for any arrangements in a price range of $100 or more. I, for one, can't afford numerous $400 adventures waiting to find that one spontaneously generous dancer. Another club that I go to offers $2-5 lap dances and $10-20 floor dances but no private room activities. Touching of breasts and most other body parts is both allowed and encouraged for the lap dances and floor dances, but pussy touching is prohibited. Most of the girls provide intimate pussy views as part of the dances. Since the dances are performed in a very open area with numerous on-lookers, including a bouncer, it is not feasible to deviate from the touching restrictions, even if the dancer were willing. So, in this situation, there is virtually nothing that could be negotiated, other than possibly OTC activities for a later time. The girls have little discretion. The only slight "extra" I was able to purchase on one occasion was to hand a particularly lovely and friendly dancer $30 instead of the usual $20 for a floor dance and then to ask her to give me the most in the way of pussy views that she felt comfortable displaying. She obliged very nicely. To sum up, then, I do NOT advocate negotiated when (a) there is nothing that can be realistically negotiated because the rules are firm and the dancer has little discretion; or (b) for relatively low priced standard lap dances or air dances. I do advocate negotiating contact for high priced, private room interactions, so as to protect yourself from expensive disappointments. The only other possibilities for me are to routinely refuse to purchase the more expensive options at variable-mileage clubs or to search out higher-mileage clubs.

A couple of you suggested that asking a dancer about specifics of what will be allowed (and/or provided) in the private room makes the relationship too much like prostitution. Isn't the essence of a strip club an exercise in walking along the narrow edge of prostitution? Aren't displays of various parts of the body, permitting various degrees of touching, and providing various sexual services simply points along a continuum? What precisely makes an arrangement prostitution or not? It can't be the payment for the activity, since that's equally evident for lap dances, private dances, and full prostitution services. How many of you would prefer that prostitution be widely legalized in the U.S.? I personally don't see any magic boundary between what goes on in strip clubs and prostitution. I see instead an unbroken continuum of possibilities. I also don't oppose legal prostitution, except to the extent that some specific instances involve exploitation of troubled women.

Bones: I think you and I have similar priorities although I don't know whether the "gushing" would appeal to me or not. I think an interesting topic for this board would be to set out as a group to learn more about the values, priorities, and motivations of guys who frequent strip clubs, using the participants of this board as a not-necessarily-random sample. We could all learn a bit about the thinking of a range of guys who enjoy strippers. I'm not sure whether such a self-study is feasible, however, because of the high level of "bashing" behavior that is evident in so many of the other threads that I briefly examined. I haven't paid much attention to which posters in particular are responsible, but it isn't pretty and it probably limits the variety of people willing to participate in this forum. For a study of "who we are" and "what we think about strip clubs" to be interesting and meaningful, there would need to be a moratorium on old grudges and an increase in tolerance for differences in viewpoint. Otherwise, the sampling of opinions would be excessively skewed toward the dominant viewpoint, as those with minority views get skewered and driven away. Honesty is only possible if the entire group can be reasonably non-judgmental. If the conditions of discussion were appropriate, there would be many interesting questions that could be posed. Just for starters, one could ask board participants whether they view themselves as pro-feminism or anti-feminism. It would be interesting to know how strip club patrons feel about or view women apart from the sexual and physical aspect. Are strip club patrons more likely to be men who also admire women by personality, intellect, or emotions, or does their interest in the women's physical qualities tend to close off any broader interest the her? It would be interesting to find out whether strip club patrons are more or less tolerant of sexual preference alternatives compared to the general population of men. It would be interesting to know what fraction of participants prefer A-cup, B-cup, C-cup, D-cup, or larger. How many of us prefer women with small, tight pelvises versus a broader, more distinctly feminine build? Those kinds of discovery issues could only be approached in a meaningful way if participants felt that their particular viewpoint would not be subject to ridicule. This particular thread has been very constructive but it looks to me to be more the exception than the rule. What do you think?

Bones: I think you and I have similar priorities although I don't know whether the "gushing" would appeal to me or not. I think an interesting topic for this board would be to set out as a group to learn more about the values, priorities, and motivations of guys who frequent strip clubs, using the participants of this board as a not-necessarily-random sample. We could all learn a bit about the thinking of a range of guys who enjoy strippers. I'm not sure whether such a self-study is feasible, however, because of the high level of "bashing" behavior that is evident in so many of the other threads that I briefly examined. I haven't paid much attention to which posters in particular are responsible, but it isn't pretty and it probably limits the variety of people willing to participate in this forum. For a study of "who we are" and "what we think about strip clubs" to be interesting and meaningful, there would need to be a moratorium on old grudges and an increase in tolerance for differences in viewpoint. Otherwise, the sampling of opinions would be excessively skewed toward the dominant viewpoint, as those with minority views get skewered and driven away. Honesty is only possible if the entire group can be reasonably non-judgmental. If the conditions of discussion were appropriate, there would be many interesting questions that could be posed. Just for starters, one could ask board participants whether they view themselves as pro-feminism or anti-feminism. It would be interesting to know how strip club patrons feel about or view women apart from the sexual and physical aspect. Are strip club patrons more likely to be men who also admire women by personality, intellect, or emotions, or does their interest in the women's physical qualities tend to close off any broader interest the her? It would be interesting to find out whether strip club patrons are more or less tolerant of sexual preference alternatives compared to the general population of men. It would be interesting to know what fraction of participants prefer A-cup, B-cup, C-cup, D-cup, or larger. How many of us prefer women with small, tight pelvises versus a broader, more distinctly feminine build? Those kinds of discovery issues could only be approached in a meaningful way if participants felt that their particular viewpoint would not be subject to ridicule. This particular thread has been very constructive but it looks to me to be more the exception than the rule. What do you think?

To Casualguy: When you refer to "sexual services," I assume that includes whatever she might do by way of touching you, but does that phrase, by your usage, also include you touching her. Are you saying that you only go to clubs to look or are you saying you go to look and to touch but not to get off?

I've never had any difficulty getting dances from any of my top choices. The clubs I go to are a buyer's market and the dancers typically are having trouble findng enough spenders. Also, I pay a little extra to my very favorite gals in order to stay on their priority list. Occasionally, I've had to wait for a gal to finish up with another one or two customers before getting a turn, but there's always plenty to watch in the meantime.

Well, casualguy, that would sort of depend on which side of my wife the dancer was sleeping on!

The club that I'm referring to is the Platinum Plus in Portland, Maine, which, as I understand it, is not nearly as much fun as the one in SC. The rules in the Portland branch are much more restrictive. I hate the way they operate the club but many of the ladies there are magnificent to look at (which is mostly all you get to do). Some of them provide very erotic private dances. The Champagne Room excursions are mostly a complete waste of money, unless you get very lucky, since you can get all the same entertainment downstairs at a much lower price.

IMO, terms like "prostitute," "whore," and "slut," are just nasty pejoratives by which society tries to suppress behavior of which it doesn't generally approve. In reality it's all relative. A guy who pays for his date's dinner at a fancy restaurant may be hoping for a payoff at the end of the evening. A gold-digger who marries an aging millionaire has another kind of payoff in mind. Even the most sincerely loving married couple exchanges services and there's sometimes a disparity in earning potential vs. caretaking contributions between the two. One would think that erotic dancers would understand the hurt caused by application of pejorative terms better than most people and would avoid applying them to fellow sex-industry workers who happen to have more liberal limits than their own, but the cultural imperative and the power of the terms are so pervasive that even those who have been damaged by them fall into the habit of damaging others with them, in a vain effort to differentiate themselves from the bad girls. You had a good time and she earned some good money, so my advice is to let it go at that and give her the benefit of not applying any of society's unfriendly terms to what was basically just a mutually beneficial and congenial exchange.

Yes, I see! That makes a difference of course.

"Pussy, lips, and ass crack" pretty much covers the portals of entry -- unless, of course, you're small enough to fit in her navel or nostrils! Teehee.

Yeh, well any guy who buys sexual services from women (from viewing strippers up to full service sex or variants) and then turns around and disparages the woman selling such services is a misogynistic hypocrite, in my opinion. Any woman I pay for such activities gets both my respect and gratitude. If I didn't respect her (for any reason), I wouldn't hire her in the first place. Prostitution that entails exploitation of one party or another is wrong – not because it's prostitution but because it's exploitive. All of the rest of the bullshit about prostitution is just simple-minded, pious moralism. I'll take a "whore" over a self-righteous bigot any day of the week.

I personally wouldn't dismiss any woman as a "whore" anymore than I'd routinely refer to some person as a "masturbator." Most people have masturbated at one time or another but it would be abusive to label a person such, based on one activity in which they engage. I haven't paid a woman for (full) sex since I was nineteen (more than forty years ago). When I pay a dancer for looking and/or touching (certainly I hope the touching will be sexual in nature), I view her as a young woman sharing her beauty and her intimate being with me in exchange for payment, in order for her to make a living. I don't view the payment to her as license to disparage her with insulting labels. I would have the same view if I were paying her for full sex. The essence of the relationship is what the two individuals make of it. If you choose to reduce paid sexual or semi-sexual relationships to "paying to fuck a whore" then that's probably what you experience, but it bears no meaningful resemblance to any experiences I've had with strip club dancers or other women.

The women that I interact with work in clubs as dancers. They provide degrees of sexual services that vary from one gal to another and, perhaps, from day to day or customer to customer. I can't say for sure, since my sample is limited. None of them wear T-shirts declaring "I am a whore." I interact with each one of them as a human being working in a strip club who might or might not have limits well-matched to my personal desires. Regardless of what her limits might be, I don't view her as a "whore." It is not the frankness of the language that is at issue; it's the demeaning reduction of a person to a pejorative term. In talking with dancers who have suggested a trip to the Champage Room, I often say something to the effect that I'd like as much intimacy as she is comfortable sharing, as a prelude to asking the lady about her touch limits. None of the ladies that I've spoken to in that way have any difficulty understanding the concept of "intimacy." The possibility of "fucking" has never been part of the conversations I've had because (a) it's not feasible in most (all but one) of the clubs I frequent, and (b) I would not agree to it even if the dancer suggested it. I can't speak for what is or is not the essence of your relationships with the women you call "whores" but your view of women who provide varying degrees of sexual services bears no relationship whatsoever to my personal experiences.

I couldn't care less about whether or not my interactions with dancers meet the legal definition of prostitution. I am delighted to have the opportunity to pay attractive young ladies for their attentions, some of which no doubt qualify as sexual services, in one degree or another. That may be a threshold concern for others but it is not for me. The issue that I have raised is the basic dignity of human relations and how one views sex-industry workers who provide varying degrees of sexual services. The fact is that semantics are important in dealing with people. We all should understand by now that language can be emotive and is sometimes used for hateful purposes. Often the defense offered by people engaged in demeaning language is "candor" or "frankness." Were I to follow the guidance provided by some participating on this message board as regards the nature of "whores", the following is how my conversations might proceed with young strip club workers in the future: "Hi Sasha, I'm Doc. I might be interested in a trip to the Champagne Room with you, but before discussing it further, I need to know if you are the complex human being that you appear to be or merely a prostitute or a whore. Apparently, from what I gather from the strip club message board, if you shake your ta-ta's in my face, rub your pussy across my nose and eyes or spread it out for a good look-see, provide me with a hand job or blow job, or let me finger your pussy you are likely a prostitute (from a legal point of view). Worse, if you sometimes allow a customer to slip his willie into your pussy, you have crossed the magic boundary into whoredom. If so, fucking is the essence of what you do and who you are and you no longer could conceivably understand the notion of "intimacy." So, are you the congenial, lovely, and personable young woman that you appear to be or are you a prostitute or,worse, one of Chandler's "whores" – which is to say, something akin to a barnyard animal?"

No rationalization for my activities at strip clubs is required. Obviously, the dancers spend time with me only so long as they are being paid. It is how they make their living. I happily pay them for their time and effort. Their efforts include a variety of interactions that range from flirting and conversation to creating sexual fantasy to outright sexual services. I don't see how I could be any more explicit in acknowledging that I pay dancers for services (including sexual ones) and am delighted to do so. I have no need to deny or rationalize those simple facts. I also have no need to treat dancers as less than complete and worthy human beings simply because they make their living selling a mixture of their personalities, talents, sexual qualities, and sexual contact. Many of the dancers with whom I've interacted I would rank among the finest young people I've ever met and my profession brings me into contact with hundreds every year. I have not observed any consistent correlation between the "limits" of a particular dancer and her other qualities of personality, beauty, talent, or interpersonal sensitivity. I see no basis for applying pejorative terms to women if their limits exceed some arbitrary standard. It is obvious that the word "whore" is pejorative for most people. It is basically a "gender slur" similar in kind to words that we all recognize as ethnic or racial slurs. The reason that so many dancers invest time and effort in differentiating themselves from other dancers they view as "whores" or "prostitutes" is precisely because these terms carry a great deal of negative weight. To claim that such terms are neutral is disingenuous.

When a person uses a derogatory word to describe themself, we all understand that much of the word's negative potential is dissipated. A heavy person can refer to himself as a "fatty" and we all laugh. The same point applies to an extent when a person uses a loaded racial slur in relation to another person in their own racial group. A black person can use the "n word" for another black person in a non-inflammatory way That in no way alters the fact that the same word carries a strong negative emotional load when used by someone outside the group to which the word is typically applied. I agree that it is merely cute and in no way harmful when a gal says to her lover, "I want to be your whore tonight," but that in no way alters the significance or effect of men putting down strippers or other sex-industry workers by dismissing them as whores.

Good point, Driver01. I agree that one should anticipate that a message board of this kind would have a politically incorrect edge to its language and ideas. Part of the reason that I am participating on this board is precisely because I expect to find people here who have positive views about strip clubs and strippers, which right away distinguishes the company here from the general population of up-tight prudes. I say, "Three cheers to men who openly acknowledge that they enjoy the company of beautiful young women in scanty apparel." It is also not my intent to inhibit anyone's choice of words or free expression of their ideas. Certainly Chandler and others have expressed their views intelligently and clearly. I am merely countering with my own ideas. Generally speaking, however, I would expect that the way in which "politically incorrect" viewpoints would manifest on a board devoted to strip clubs would be in the direction of being supportive and appreciative of strippers and liberal contact limits among strippers rather than contributing to society's negative stereotypes about such activities by the recycling of its litany of pejorative concepts and terms.

Driver01: "I hope you also observe that they usually get the same pass when using that same language to describe others whilst in their sphere of influence. Dancers calling other dancers "whores" comes to mind..." When a dancer describes another dancer as a "whore" for the purpose of differentiating and distancing herself from that dancer's choices, I don't believe that the dancer either deserves or receives a "pass" on the use of the derogatory term. To describe others AND oneself using a derogatory term is one thing; to describe others using the term to distinguish them from yourself is entirely different. In fact, there is ample evidence on the message boards for various clubs that tension between dancers most often has to do with the intolerance that some dancers have toward others who have more liberal limits.

Chandler: "I think many on this thread aren't making a bid enough deal of the difference between intercourse and less violative forms of sex, and the consequences of that for a stripper." One can certainly fruitfully differentiate the characteristics of various kinds of sex acts (vaginal intercourse, anal intercourse, cunnilingus, fellatio, fingering, hand jobs, etc.). One point of distinction might be how "violative" each sex act is. The issue of penetration, for example, is often relevant in court cases involving sex crimes, as a basis for differentiating rape from the more general concept of sexual assault. Vaginal intercourse involves penetration, but so too do anal intercourse, fellatio, and fingering, and, sometimes, analingus or cunnilingus. I don't see a sense in which vaginal intercourse is necessarily more "violative" than anal intercourse or fellatio. Society is perhaps more urgently served by differentiating various sex acts on the basis of likelihood of propagating STDs or resulting in unintended pregnancy, but that's another issue altogether. Using one or another specific sex act as a threshold for applying denigrating terms to a woman is ludicrous, however. The issue of monetary payment for a sex act is a fairly definitive criterion for defining prostitution, but the relationship between which acts were performed and terms such as "whore" or "prostitute" is certainly unclear, as the posts in this thread make abundantly clear. In any case there is a big difference in the effect of saying that a particular woman engaged in an act of prostitution versus attaching the label "prostitute" or "whore" to that woman.